Sunday 29 May 2011

BBC's the Big Questions - Thoughts on the Young People's Special, by Tulpesh Patel

I posted with some excitement a couple of weeks back (see below) about being offered the opportunity to take part in the BBC Big Questions Young People’s Panel on the future and relevance in young people’s lives. Sadly it fell through, they managed to confirm someone else to take part while I faffed about with thesis corrections and trying to arrange dentist appointments, but I was happy to see Amber Wright, President of the University of Birmingham Atheist, Secular and Humanist Society, representing a Birmingham AHS society, alongside Alison Rawlinson from (I think) the Coventry & Warwickshire Humanists.

Unfortunately, it took me too long to get round to writing this and it’s disappeared from BBC iPlayer Hopefully it will be up on Youtube soon, because it made for fascinating watching. In the meantime here are some thoughts on the program and the issues being debated.

The main question under discussion was whether religion will survive another generation, with secondary issues such as such as the recruitment of children into religion, the reaction of religion to advances in scientific understanding and the increasingly liberal attitudes of younger generations. The panellists were Shane Lynch of Boyzone and Coronation Street fame, Radio 1 DJ Nihal Arthanayake, writer and critic, Bidisha Bandyopadhyay and Joanna Jepson, reverend at the London School of Fashion and one-time mentor on Channel 4’s lamentable Make Me A Christian.

The discussion covered familiar ground.  Joanna Jepson began by basically saying that that religion was for and made by humans, thereby pretty much undermining everything she had to say on the value of religion for the rest of discussion. Debate on the religious indoctrination of children quickly turned to faith schools. Faiths schools are almost required by religions in order to keep them going; exposure of their children to other religions, and secular and/or atheist thinking in anthema to those who wish to foster the narrow minded dogmatism that maintaining religion requires. The arguments against faith schools are many any strong and don’t need to be repeated here.

The real damage is not that children in faith schools leave not ‘believing’ in evolution, but that they are not equipped with the tools of rational, reasoned thought that make an understanding and appreciation of evolution obligatory. An important point made by and RE teacher in the audience, was care needed not to conflate the academic study of religion and the indoctrination of children into a specific religion according to the dictat of the faith schools; it is just the latter that secularists and atheists have a problem with.

Nihal made two important points, that didn’t  get the attention that they deserved during the discussion. First that religion is very closely tied up with culture and community, and second that parents often use religion to constrain their children’s behaviour within cultural boundaries – making cultural issues, particularly surrounding the role of women, a matter of punishment and control by a punitive god in order maintain patriarchal hegemony.  

Members of the audience, one particularly heatedly, also cried out that atheism and science was also just a faith, when careful consideration of the definition of faith and its concomitants shows that it clearly isn’t. AC Grayling has stated it most clearly: “Faith is the negation of reason. Reason is the faculty of proportioning judgement to evidence, after first weighing the evidence. Faith is belief even in the face of contrary evidence”.  Søren Kierkegaard’s ‘leap of [or rather to] faith’, was mentioned on more than one occasion as a virtue by religious apologists in the audience (including, the guy was famous for singing this disco anthem).

Stephen Jay-Gould’s ‘Non-overlapping magisteria’ also featured, but was wonderfully shot down by an audience member who pointed out that this cannot be the case given the number of scientific claims made by religions and their texts. Where religion has anything to say about the natural state of the world, science and faith collide; faith has always been, and undoubtedly always will be, on the conceding side.

To date, religion has also claimed to the sole arbiter of issues of morality, ‘where do athieists get their morality if not from God’ was shouted from the audience more than once. Humanists have their answers based on philosophical thought, but even discussions of good and evil are falling within the realms of scientific understanding. Sam Harris argues in his latest book, the Moral Landscape that neuroimaging technologies like functional magnetic resonance imaging will be able to tell us more about not only how the brain works but also morality, what constitutes good and bad and how we ought to live. Whilst the merits of such a theory are still being discussed, the fact is that the religious fingers around the neck of moral thought are increasingly loosening.

As to whether religion can survive another generation, the answer is most certainly yes. Not even the most optimisticic militant atheist would think otherwise. The indoctrination of children before they are able to think for themselves; the comfort that religion offers to the poor that the bleakness of naturalism can apparently not; the seemingly insatiable need for people to hope of there being ‘something more than this’; that science doesn’t have, and doesn’t have to temerity to claim it has, all of the answers; that that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, whilst wiser men are full of doubts; all these reasons and hundreds more are why religion, whilst apparently in decline, is not going to away completely.

Religion can of course, in some individuals, cease to be important within one generation. I am proof of that. Both my parents were born in India, and whilst an education for my father in the UK wore away at all but the most cultural aspects of his religion, my mother is a Hindu. Just how Hindu, given that I know more about her religion than she does is a matter for another discussion. (I was an ardent supporter of the BHA’s census campaign because it’s most important effect was on people like my dad, who would have reflexively put Hindu on the form before being made to think about what he actually believe, or more accurately what he doesn’t believe). But, the significant caveat in my case is the liberal outlook of my parents, who gave me the choice and freedom to think for myself. Not all children get this freedom, especially not those who are forced to go to faith schools because of their parent’s faith. Making a break from a family and community bound in religiously culture can be very difficult. The growth of organisations such grass-root societies, particularly at university where exposure to different people and ideas is much less under parental control, is vital, as it provides a support network of  like-minded young people.

As to the future, Bidisha optimistically hoped for of a future of harmonious secular humanism. I think most would settle for Nihal’s wish that “people believe and love their faith without believing and telling me that they’re better than me”.  Surprisingly, it was born again Christian Shane Lynch who captured the essence of what it means to be religious, and the reason that religion will persist: “God gave me my life back, but I still eat lobster.”

17 comments:

  1. I think that we all indoctrinate our children. I hope that both humanists and Christians teach their children that it is wrong to murder, steal, etc. But without God, logically are there such things as moral absolutes?

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  2. @Oli. The world is full of contradictions in that we say it is wrong to murder but it is not wrong to kill otherwise how do you explain soldiers currently killing on our behalf in the Middle East.

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  3. how come such an important subject as this only atracts two comments ? ?
    seems to me that not many people really interested or mortivated by these subjects or religion ! !
    suggest ask yourself what they do with their time or just observe them ! !
    and perhaps you will see what i do, that most people are self centered, very selfish and full of contradictions.
    carl weininger

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  4. Just watched the big question this morning regarding killing yourself or allowing others to kill you?
    After over 20years in the NHS I can tell you this is a dangerous idea there are people who will take advantage of this and the old and disabled will be very afraid and dispite people thinking they have no other way there is please do not go down this road.

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  5. in answer to the above i am disabled and in considerable pain and i know there are many people in the disabled community, including myself, who will welcome the end when things get too bad, as we do not wish to be a burden or suffer much more ! ! incidentaly i didn't get on the big question for that one ! ! , but later that day i took part in a big question special about "any evidence for the existence of god",to be shown on sunday 15th, in the debate i pointed out ; that my disabilities, my experience on a pilgrimage to lourdes and a serious motor-cycle accident were not consistent with the existence of god. carl weininger.

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  6. @AHS“Faith is the negation of reason.Reason is the faculty of proportioning judgement to evidence,after first weighing the evidence.Faith is belief even in the face of contrary evidence"(ACGrayling)n "Where religion has anything to say about the natural state of the world, science and faith collide; faith has always been, and undoubtedly always will be, on the conceding side"(AHS)NOW, TAKING INTO ACCOUNT SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERY OF THE NEW PLANET KEPPLER 22B SCIENCE PROVED THAT IN SEARCH FOR 'SOMETHING MORE' IN SPACE WAS BASED ON FAITH THAT THERE COULD BE SOMETHING MORE...SO SCIENCE AND RELIGION DOES NOT COLLIDE! SCIENCE N RELIGION COMPLEMENT EACHOTHER,GOLDER RATIO PROVES THAT THERE IS AN ORDER THAT 'RULES' ENTIRE BEINGS ALSO JUST BECAUSE IN THE PAST WE DIDN'T KNOW HOW ELECTRICITY WORKS IT DIDN'T MEAN THERE IS NOT ELECTRICITY...JUST BECASUE WE COUDN'T SEE OTHER PLANET WHERE LIFE CAN BE PRESENT IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY DID NOT EXIST...WE ARE STILL LEARNING,AND SCIENCE CAN EXPLAIN SCIENTIFICLY PROCES OF RESURECTION OF JEZUS,SHAME NONE SPEAK ABUT THIS OFTHEN,SCIENCE PROVED THAT ONLY GOD COULD RESURECT COS ONLY HE WAS ABLE TO ACT THIS 'TECHNIQUE',SAME WITH TELEPATHY OR TELEKINESIS,LOOKS LIKE THERE ARE SENSES MOST HUMANS DIDN'T DEVELOPED YET,SO WE HAVE LOTS TO LEARN N WE NEVER KNOW WHO GOD REALLY IS...HE MUST BE THE MOST SCIENTIFIC BEING EVER USING SCIENTIFIC GOLDEN RATIO AN SCIENTIFIC ORDER IN NATURE TO EXPOSE HIMSEFL TO CERTAIN DEGREE BY EXISTANCE OF THIS ORDER IN EVERY LIVING BEING N MATHEMATICS N ALSO ARCHITECTURE. SCIENCE N GOD DOES NOT COLIDE!

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  7. importance of the faith as part of life is proved by such science as psychology n also philosophy,using reason of scientific research those sciences' proves humans are spiritual beings with a need of something more to life than 'eat n sleep' like most animals, faith will last n it does not matter how some are using the battle about faith schools or science n faith fake collidance as an argument.same as above post on religion n science complementation, all religions complement eatch other due to positive elements they present. BBC1 the Big Question(15Jan'12): Muslim man stated:'Quran is the only holly scripture on the world becasue it is said in it IT is, but it's not said so in the Bible' NONSENSE! it IS clearly said in Bible that Bible is a reveled holly words, check John's letters etc. (it is also nonsense if one scripture is holly then other can't be, God works flexibly, look how big is space, we don't know whats there yet...how many species we still discover on Earth...) regarding holly scripture (n fake stories) the thing is do you really believe in it, if you do then you respect it such as you respect science using kind of 'non-rational believe' in constant search of new planets n life in space...just becasue you can't see something it dosn't mean it don't exist...
    show me your inteligence, can you see it? NO cos it is INVISIBLE...but its there...same with new planets or God.

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  8. intelligence is "tangible" and to a great extent quantifiable, as is the existence of more planets, but any argument for the existence of any god is flawed by intelligence and logic and a total lack of any "tangible" proof or past or future events. sorry.
    carl weininger.

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  9. How is it that godists often seem to have different keyboards to normal people?

    Does lower case offend their deities?

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  10. i have the impression that "godists", feel they are "GOOD" and "GODLY" and "BETTER", than the rest of us, who are only the "VAST UN-HOLY MAJORITY".
    carl weininger.

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  11. streighthinking said:
    "Muslim man stated:'Quran is the only holly scripture on the world becasue it is said in it IT is, but it's not said so in the Bible' NONSENSE! it IS clearly said in Bible that Bible is a reveled holly words, check John's letters etc."

    I found that statement by the Muslim to be the dumbest part of the program, and for you to try to debate against it also makes you look stupid, streighthinking. Have you really lived your whole life without hearing the aphorism "Well they would say that, wouldn't they", does it not tell you something?

    The best argument against this 'which god is the right one' question is the 'Geography argument', a.k.a the 'Hereditary argument' which was wielded by David Aaronovitch, and I loved it when that Adam Deen chappie had to admit in words to the effect of "yes, had I been born in Kerala, you are correct to say that my arguments would be that all the evidence points to the creator of the universe being Lord Krishna. from which I must now derive the conclusion that gay sex sex and bacon sarnies are not in fact haram, it's beef sandwiches I should not be eating."

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  12. Well it has been proven that Quran is the only book to not been tampered with and Allah say's in the Quran that He will protect it. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and it is in america. been told 20,000 people are reverting their every year and loads around europe. A bible in turkey is coming out in public and pope want sto see it as it has claimed that Jesus was talking about Mohammed to be coming. This bible should be the sign of the truth.

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  13. Also the bible says dont eat por, dont eat meat with blood in(the mislim halal way) it also talks about the coming of the comforter(not an invilsible one) the coming of the comforter who will guide people to the straight path and yes Mohammed has come and many people are reverting as the signs are in the Quran about the stages of a women giving birth 1400 years ago, About Pharoah that his body will be saved for the people to see 1400 years ago, about the mountain embeded like pegs 1400 years ago, about IRON sent down for the people 1400 years ago, about the invisible line inbetween the sea 1400 years ago which scientists have just found out recently. Just think why would Abraham peace be upon his be ordered to make the kaba in saudi arabia???? just think people why in the hindu book it talks about the final messenger in saudi arabia and mentions his mother and farthers name. just think and do your own research for once and dont get brainwashed by people who will try and get you to go the wrong way. Why would jesus peace be upon him invent alcohol when it kills millions of people, rapes happen because of ti and violence. on the cross in bible it says Jesus said ELI ELI WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME. ELI in arabis means ALLAH and also thios proves he didnt want to die so of course this means he didnt die for peoples sins. this is what the church people want people brainwash peopi with

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  14. Why does the BBC keep giving air time to Lance Armstrong subject. He is an outright liar and should be banished from discussions

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  15. I have no objection to Muslims, they believe what they want to believe but for the sake of their book which does not support killing why do they not just get on with thrie lives and leave the rest of us to lead ours without all this bloodshed, they are hypocrites they way they muslims)extremists carry on. Come on normal Muslims rise up against the extremists , they will damage you beyond belief

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  16. On the topic of religion, I completely agree with the post above extremists of every/any religion should be classified as med evil and/or immoral behavior and not to be accepted in our society. Everybody is different and everyone's beliefs should be respected as long as those beliefs do not impose on others lives in an immoral manner. When I say immoral, I mean behavior that is unnecessarily hurtful, controlling and/or manipulative.

    On the topic of all types of drugs. I completely agree with the old lady in pink on the show we need to be realistic and aware and informed of the affect of each drug, people will take them either way. However, most drugs which are available, legal or illegal, the government make money from anyway.
    So, For the people who abide by the law and think alcohol is ok! It is not just a coincidence that alcohol (which is a depressant & just as harmful as heroin,crack ect..) is legal. Unlike the hard illegal drugs, alcohol encourages physical and social interaction, however, the government do not want to encourage us to be too socially active, they want us to work as hard and as long as we possibly can to make them even more money. Therefore, alcohol allows us to socialize without actually thinking of anything important, it allows us to feel like we are a significant part of society without actually achieving anything. Long term alcohol damages our self esteem and distances us from others emotionally, making us more likely to be money orientated! This makes it the best drug in the world to the government, hence why it is everywhere we go and is the norm.
    Also, It is not just a coincidence that two of the safest most liberating, friendly and genuinely social drugs in the world!! Cannabis and MDMA (anti-depressants and harmless compared to most medicines/legal drugs and...they would be made even safer if legalized) are illegal & classified among the most dangerous illegal drugs. And the reason is because they do not want people to take drugs that will make them more compassionate, materialistically, socially and emotionally satisfied, so they play more, talk more and work less.
    People need to open their minds, I don't mean rebellion, I mean teach your children what is morally right!!
    What is human? because we don't seem to be very human these days? Yes, we should work, for our food, home, & so that we can afford to spend time with loved ones, not to buy material substances(what should be insignificant to us, it goes against our nature)but funnily enough it is all people think about these days!! Overall, the extreme consumption of drugs,, food, material substances throughout the country highlights how unnaturally unsatisfied we are with our day to day lives as we feel the need to consume constantly. People have lost the joy of living, however, we cannot change what we have become but we can look to the future, and as we are all now living in a shallow, materialistic and overworked society, the least we should do is consume substances that provide positive support and behave and work to try and make ourselves and the people around us as happy and as healthy we can be.

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  17. The NHS have defended a doctor who breached many protocols in administering a vaccination as firstly the consent form was illegally falsified after being signed and secondly the doctor vaccinated the wrong person as no checks were made.. Since this violation many doors have been closed and the truth contorted to cover up these criminal and illegal actions.
    How can justice be gained when the organisarions who devise such issues are corrupt, neglectful and ignorrant to this?

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